The Historic Return of Bruce’s Beach with George Fatheree

In this episode, George Fatheree III talks about his journey leading to his representation of the heirs of Charles and Willa Bruce, whose land in the city of Manhattan Beach in Los Angeles County was taken away from them a century ago.

Justice for the Bruces gained momentum in April 2021 when Los Angeles County Supervisors Janice Hahn and Holly Mitchell announced their intention to have Los Angeles County return the beachfront property to the Bruce’s legal heirs.

But the return was not a sure thing. Opposition loomed. There were thorny legal questions to answer, tax implications to consider, and legislative hurdles to clear.  
At the time, a partner at Munger Tolles & Olson who would later leave for Sidley Austin, Fatheree had an ideal background for the assignment, which included politics, real estate, and projects supporting the African-American community. At Munger and Sidley, he was also backed by multidisciplinary teams, who eventually devoted more than 1,000 pro bono hours to creating a model for other governments to correct historical injustices.

Their work paid off. On July 20, 2022, the Board of Supervisors returned ownership of Bruce’s Beach to the closest living legal heirs of Charles and Willa Bruce. It was the first time any government in the United States had returned land wrongly taken from a Black family.

Thank you for listening. To learn more, visit Infinite Global and M Coffey.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Andrew: On February 19, 1912, Willa Bruce paid $1, 225 for land measuring roughly 33 by 105 feet in Manhattan Beach in Los Angeles County. Willa, born in Missouri, and her husband, Charles of Washington, D. C., were part of the Great Migration of black Americans who left the South to settle North and West. Willa's vision for a seaside resort catering to black families who faced whites only restrictions at other beaches was an immediate success.

[00:00:34] After opening on June 17th, 1912, Willa bought more property, expanding her footprint with a two story house with more accommodations and amenities, including a dance floor. Bruce's Beach, as the resort was known, should have had a long and prosperous future ahead of it.

[00:00:56] Willa never got the chance to realize her vision fully. White residents who spoke of a, quote, Negro invasion made sure of it. In 1924, city officials initiated proceedings to condemn Bruce's Beach as well as land by other black families. Their legal justification? The need for a public park. The Bruce's arguments that the case was racially motivated were dismissed.

[00:01:17] By June 1927, the Bruce's had left Manhattan Beach and their building was demolished. The planned park that was considered so important? It would not be built for decades. 

[00:01:27] On June 19th, 2020, Juneteenth, 

[00:01:29] Manhattan Beach was the decided setting for a protest to bring attention to the tragic history behind Bruce's Beach. The gathering came amid a national reckoning over race relations following the murder of George Floyd.

[00:01:41] The activists demanded justice for Bruce's Beach. The movement gained momentum in April 2021 when Los Angeles County Supervisors Janice Hahn and Holly Mitchell announced their intention to have Los Angeles County Returned the beachfront property to the Bruce's legal heirs. The return was not a sure thing.

[00:02:00] There were thorny legal questions to answer, tax implications to consider, and legislative hurdles to clear. To tell their family's story and navigate this high stakes transaction, the Bruce's heirs entrusted George Fothery. At the time, a partner at Munger Tolls & Olsen, who would later leave for Sidley, Austin, Fothery had an ideal background for the assignment; politics, real estate, and projects supporting the African American community. At Munger and at Sidley, he was also backed by multidisciplinary teams who would eventually devote more than 1, 000 pro bono hours to creating a model for other governments to right historical injustices. Their work paid off.

[00:02:37] On July 20, 2022, the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors returned ownership of Bruce's Beach to George's Clients, the closest living legal heirs of Charles and Willa Bruce. It was the first time any government in the United States had returned land wrongly taken from a black family.

[00:03:06] Murray: Well, hello, Andrew. Great to see you, as always. We know that Reexamination is a joint production of Infinite Global, a best in class media consultancy, and mCoffee, uh, who are focused on improving law firm market position, professional staff development, and overall marketing department performance. My name is Murray Coffey, and I'm The principal and founder of m coffee.

[00:03:28] And I am joined as always by my friend and erudite, Andrew longstreth head writer with infinite global. You know, Andrew, we've had amazing guests, fascinating stories, and today is no different, but we're going to hear about what I think is one of the most tragic and devastating aspects of American history, specifically how the law was used to take away real property rights of communities of color, well, we're going to hear about one specific story. It's just one of thousands. Um, and these stories go back to the turn of the 20th century and beyond. And while this is a story that's personal and specific, it's also emblematic of a larger history of institutionalized racism in the United States and its impact on multiple generations of people of color.

[00:04:21] And George is going to draw that out for us. And man, it's, it's. Fascinating, but it's also depressing. 

[00:04:28] Andrew: I was fortunate to meet George while he was working on, on the Bruce's Beach matter, Infinite Global has represented, uh, Munger Tolls and, and was involved in promoting George and the firm's work on this matter.

[00:04:43] And I played a very minor role in it, but I, I got to know George a little bit and could tell he has just a real capacity for storytelling. His ability to convey the story of the Bruce's It's really singular. It's, it's exceptional. So I'm, I'm excited for folks to have a listen. George, welcome to the podcast.

[00:05:07] George: Hey guys. Thanks. I'm so glad to be here. 

[00:05:09] Andrew: So there's so much that we want to talk to you about, including what you've been up to since leaving big law. Obviously want to go deep on the Bruce matter, but I thought we'd first start just with a little bit about you. You have said that your entire life had prepared you to take on the Bruce family's fight.

[00:05:28] What did you mean by that? 

[00:05:30] George: Yeah. Thanks. And Andrew, thanks again for having me. I'm excited to have the conversation and hello to all the listeners. You know, when I, when I said that this was something, when I had. My first communication with the Bruce family, it was one of the things that I had said to them.

[00:05:47] I said that I, I feel like I've been preparing my entire personal life and entire professional career to, to be of service to your family in this matter and helping your family get its land back. And it wasn't really until those words had come out of my mouth that I thought to myself like, Oh my gosh, that's probably true.

[00:06:07] I think that's probably true. And the reason I say that is because if you look at, you know, the arc of my life and my professional trajectory and some of the personal experience I've had, it really doesn't make a lot of sense that I would have followed the path, the career path, and made some of the personal decisions that I made unless it was in preparation for a moment like this.

[00:06:30] I mean, You think about the diverse set of skills required to successfully navigate this matter and. It just so happens that these are all areas that I had received training and preparation, right? Like, it involved politics and legislation. It involved strategy. It was imperative that there was just a kind of relentless attention to detail.

[00:06:56] Obviously, very sophisticated legal analysis, legal issues, so strong legal training. It was beneficial to have a kind of a robust network spanning politics and law, communications, real estate, uh, African American community. Well, you know, when I reflect on, on my You know, my resume, you know, my first job, even before I got to college was in the California state assembly.

[00:07:20] I worked in, in politics and looking at legislation. I studied government and politics in college. You know, my, uh, when I graduated college, I went and I worked in management consulting and strategy consulting. I worked for McKinsey and company and Booz Allen and really kind of learned about complex problem solving.

[00:07:38] I had, you know, run a nonprofit focused on, you know, really creating. Educational opportunities for black and brown communities. And so, and you can go through the line and then and then, you know, very pointedly. My path to becoming specifically a real estate attorney, you know, growing up, we didn't really own real estate.

[00:07:58] That wasn't something that was part of our family's experience in law school. My least favorite class was real property. I had zero interest in that. And so you think about, well, how did this guy who, you know, didn't know anything about real estate, really never owned any real estate, hated real property.

[00:08:14] How did this guy become a, uh, a real estate attorney? And I think that's a good question. And so. But it's not just in terms of, of the technical training and the experience and the professional preparation. But I think the other reason I say that, you know, my entire life had prepared me to take on this fight also had a lot to do with my, you know, my orientation towards, towards justice, my orientation and kind of, you know, Kind of fervent commitment to giving back to community service.

[00:08:47] And within that, specifically, my kind of love and passion for You know, uplifting and righting wrongs inflicted on the black community. So, um, you put all that together and, and then this opportunity presents itself. And the feeling that I really had was, you know, gosh, everything that's in my life and career that's led up to this has helped equip me to, um, to be successful in this endeavor.

[00:09:16] Andrew: I know you are really passionate about. Pro bono. But can you talk about how pro bono matters have shaped your career and how you think about pro bono in terms of career management? 

[00:09:27] George: Yeah, listen, I mean, in a lot of ways, pro bono work has really been the key to my success as an attorney. And I'll get to that.

[00:09:35] But let me, let me back up, I guess a little bit, you know, I had, I, as I mentioned, I, I was working as a, as a management consultant, strategy consultant. Working in the private sector. And I left that work to go and run a nonprofit that was focused on public education reform. And I love that work. I found it to be very fulfilling.

[00:09:54] We were, you know, we're basically trying to make sure that black and Brown communities that had really not had access to high quality public schools for decades, if not generations, we're trying to make sure that the kids in those communities had an opportunity to access quality public education. So I love that work.

[00:10:12] I ended up going to law school at night while I was working full time in that job and really did not expect To stop doing that work. I was going to law school I wanted to get my law degree kind of learn those skills, but was very focused on continuing the the nonprofit work I was doing I got some advice when I was graduating from law school that It made a lot of sense to join a law firm To just, you know, kind of round out and help me continue to hone my legal skills.

[00:10:43] So the advice I got was you ought to go for at least a couple years and, and be in a law firm and try to develop skills and, and just kind of put to practice things that you had learned in law school. So I took that advice, but the deal that I made with myself and the deal I made with my family was look, I'm going to do this for two or three years, I'm going to try to learn as much as I can and develop as many skills as I can.

[00:11:08] But at the end of, you know, two years, if I can't commit a substantial portion of my time to causes and issues and organizations that are important to me and my family, then I'm going to bounce and I'm going to go back and work in the. Non, in the nonprofit space, and the pleasant surprise for me was it didn't take two or three years out of the gate.

[00:11:33] I was able to engage in meaningful pro bono work that that made me look. It's the reason you know that the two or three years turned into 16 years. Um, it was because of, uh, the opportunity to do pro bono work, to, you know, use my skills as an attorney to support individuals, organizations, causes that I believed in, and that very much encouraged me to remain at the firm and, and to keep pushing and to keep developing skills.

[00:12:05] And then here's the, you know, here's the little secret that folks don't realize. Not only did. The engagement in meaningful pro bono work, you know, kind of feed my soul and help me stay in the law. It also made me a better lawyer and it really accelerated my legal training and development. And, and let me, let me explain what I mean by that.

[00:12:27] Um, a lot of the, as a real estate attorney, a lot of the pro bono work I would do was helping nonprofits, uh, you know, buy real estate or negotiate leases. And, um, and so I would ask, I asked people, I said, Well, you know, do you know the difference between a lease for a nonprofit that you're doing pro bono and a lease for a paying client?

[00:12:47] And the folks on my team that, you know, associates I'm working with, they'd say, they'd say, No, what's the difference? And I'd say, exactly. There is no difference. The difference is the role. That the junior lawyer gets to play because if it's a paying client, you've got the partner and then you've got a senior associate and you've got a mid level associate and then a junior associate is way down in the bottom and the work you're doing is, you know, tends to be a little less like substantive, a little less meaty.

[00:13:15] With a pro bono client, you know, you're getting a lot more opportunities to negotiate directly with the other side, to do the first draft of the agreement, to manage the relationship with the client. And so, and a lot of folks, I think either don't realize that or they take for granted, but I very much attribute my success as an attorney and my ability to You know, to, to kind of grow as a lawyer, become a partner to the, the training and experience and the acceleration in my development that I got as a result of the pro bono work that I did.

[00:13:50] Murray: Yeah. And we're, we're going to transition just in a second into the Bruce story, but I do, as part of that transition, we'll talk, talk a little bit. I think people may not know much about this unless they are, unless they are sort of media hawks. Andrew and I are, but, but, uh, the, the Johnson publishing, uh, work now, not pro bono for sure, but you've, you've said you've gone on record to say, I think that, that this was kind of a doorway into, into the, into the Bruce representation, right.

[00:14:22] And, and, and, um, And so maybe you can talk a little bit about that particular experience and, uh, and maybe give people a little bit of backstory who don't know about Johnson Publishing or what we're talking about with the photo archive because truly is a remarkable piece of historical artifact and historical markers that, uh, were almost lost to, to, you know, to the world.

[00:14:52] George: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so for folks who don't know, Johnson Publishing Company was a magazine company that was founded in the 1940s by an African American entrepreneur, Mr. Johnson published a number of periodicals, the two most famous of which are Ebony Magazine and Jet Magazines, which were published for, gosh, almost probably about nine decades.

[00:15:16] Unfortunately, in 2018 2019, Johnson Publishing Company, um, like a lot of, you know, uh, analog media companies at the time, were having problems. Adjusting with, you know, with the with new media and the company was struggling and eventually was placed in bankruptcy and there was a bankruptcy court process to To sell the remaining assets of the company and the most valuable asset that the company had was its photography archive.

[00:15:47] So what, what was the photography archive Johnson publishing company photography archive was comprised of over four and a half million. These are photographs that have been taken for the magazines really over the last, you know, eight to nine decades of those four and a half million images, you know, we estimate that maybe 900, 000, maybe a million of those had been seen by the public in terms of they'd run in a magazine.

[00:16:14] You think about it, you're, you know, you run a magazine, you'll send photographers out, photographers take a ton of pictures and maybe only one ends up in the magazine, or maybe you end up not doing that story. So Literally, probably close to three and a half million images that have never been seen by the public and these are photographs that document the African American experience over the last 80 years, which is to say the American experience and so you had this nothing like this archive exists and nothing like it will ever exist again.

[00:16:46] And, uh, and it was being auctioned off at a bankruptcy auction. And, and there was very little information about, you know, that's the nature of an auction. You're not sure who's going to win. You're not sure who's gonna, who's gonna acquire it. And at the time I was a partner at a law firm and our firm had a relationship.

[00:17:03] One of our clients was, uh, was the J. Paul Getty Trust. And the Getty had, was familiar with the archive and in previous years they had You know, they toured the archives, they had seen the kind of pristine quality of the images and the photographs, and so the Getty was interested in acquiring the photography archive with the purpose and goal of preserving it in perpetuity, so that it could be available for scholarly and public study.

[00:17:34] And so our firm was hired by the Getty, uh, a consortium of other foundations, uh, eventually joined, uh, the team and decided that they also wanted to support the Getty, so it was the Ford Foundation, the MacArthur Foundation, the Mellon Foundation, and this was the first time in history that these four, yeah, these are, you know, the largest foundations in the country, basically, first time in history that they had come together to, to do a project like this, which I think speaks to its significance.

[00:18:02] You know, to make a long story less long, we, you know, we were successful, we successfully bid, we, we saved the photography archive. Here's the lesson that I learned in that matter. Um, the lesson was, you never know when an opportunity Will present itself and all that you can control is that when it does, you can be ready.

[00:18:24] You know, I'm not an intellectual property attorney. I'm not a bankruptcy attorney. I was, I was brought on the team to, to kind of focus on a relatively narrow part of the transaction. But I think. Because of a, uh, of a series of circumstances and events, um, I very quickly had the opportunity to step in a leadership role and to, to lead the team that, that ended up, you know, being successful in that, in that, um, in the bankruptcy auction.

[00:18:50] So the lesson for me is you never know when the opportunity is going to present itself, but you damn sure want to be ready when it does. 

[00:18:57] Murray: And opportunity rarely presents itself at convenient times. Look, 

[00:19:04] George: it's also, it's about having, you know, confidence in, in yourself and confidence in the training and the ability abilities that you have.

[00:19:13] And, and look, you know, my, you know, going back, like when I joined the law, my, my original strategy was to be there two or three years. And so I wanted to make sure I learned everything, right? I wanted to kind of, you know, I didn't want to leave a dollar on the table. I wanted to get as much out of that experience for the short time I would be there.

[00:19:31] I think that's really how, you know, how I've, um, how I've, um, approached my career. And I think it's paid off because when those opportunities do present themselves, you don't have time to, to kind of second guess or worry, or, you know, did you get the training? You've got to know, um, that you can, can rise to and meet the challenge.

[00:19:49] Andrew: Well, speaking of rising to the challenge, you certainly did that in the Bruce matter, but set the scene for us at the beginning of the case. How did you get involved? 

[00:19:59] George: Yeah. So, you know, it really, it really takes off from the ebony and jet photography archive matter that, that we were just speaking about after.

[00:20:06] Our clients successfully acquired the art, uh, the archive. There was some, some media around that and I've got a good friend, uh, Lisa Richardson, she was an editor for the LA times and she had heard about my work with the photography archive and she called me and she said, Hey, I'm going to send you an article and I want you to read the article and I want to come over and I want to talk to you about it.

[00:20:28] And the article she sent me told the story of what happened at Bruce's Beach. And, uh, and it made me very angry. Um, angry for a couple of reasons. Uh, angry about the injustice that had been done to this family. But actually more angry that this is a story that I had never heard. This happened not in the South, you know, 200 years ago.

[00:20:48] This happened in Los Angeles County. Right. My hometown, Los Angeles County, um, less than a hundred years ago. And, and I was frustrated that I, I hadn't heard this. And so, so she came over and we spoke and I decided I, I wanted to see if I could do something. And, uh, I went, went to the firm and I recruited an associate.

[00:21:07] We spent a few months doing, doing research. And, and we came up with some very, you know, what I consider to be creative legal strategies, creative approaches. But to be honest with you, and to be honest with myself, at the end of the research, there was, there was, I didn't have, you know, confidence that, that we would be successful.

[00:21:27] Um, and the sad reality is, even when the harm is clear, which it was clear in this case, there's a lot of areas where our legal system falls short. And doesn't offer adequate remedy. And so the last thing that I wanted to do was to reach out to this family that had already been through so much, the loss that they endured and what it did to their family and get their hopes up for something where I wasn't sure that I would be able to deliver.

[00:21:55] Fast forward just a couple months. It was May 25th, 2020, and that's the day we all watched George Floyd be murdered. And in the aftermath of Mr. Floyd's murder, there was this ignition of awareness and anger and, and really this, this kind of broad support, uh, for recognizing, uh, the injustices that had been endured by African Americans, um, you know, and, and, and not confined to, to police brutality and, and, and discrimination in the, in the criminal justice system, but across, um, across numerous areas.

[00:22:34] And so. So in the aftermath of Mr. Floyd's death, there were, again, a series of kind of unlikely events, which, which culminated in a, in a protest that was organized by a young woman named Kavan Ward in the city of Manhattan Beach, near the site where the Bruce's had lost their property on Juneteenth, June 19th, 2020, there was a protest and that, and the protest was, was, um, You know, it's publicized on social media with, with hashtag justice for Bruce's Beach.

[00:23:07] That protest, uh, got publicity, got covered by the local papers. And one of the people who, uh, who then learned the story and learned about the matter was, was the county supervisor that oversaw that area, a woman named, uh, Supervisor Janice Hahn. And my understanding is that when Supervisor Hahn Heard the story about Bruce's Beach.

[00:23:30] She asked her staff, she asked her team. Well, you know, what happened to that property? Who owns that property now? And her team said, supervisor, you do that land was, was taken by the city of Manhattan beach. It was transferred to the state of California and the state of California in the 1980s, transfer that land to the County of Los Angeles.

[00:23:48] And so. Today, that land is owned by Los Angeles County. You own it. And when she heard that, you know, my understanding is she was the one who said, Well, if we own it, we ought to see if there's a way to return it to the family. We ought to see if there's a way we can give it back. When I heard that, um, that's when I decided, um, I had to be involved.

[00:24:11] This had never happened before. There was no precedent for this. We didn't know when there would be an opportunity. For this to happen again, if there would be an opportunity for this to happen again, and what I was certain of was as much as there was momentum and goodwill and interest in trying to return this land to the descendants of the Bruce's, I also knew enough to understand that there would also be opposition.

[00:24:39] And that there would be a lot of folks who didn't want to see this happen. There would be folks who would try to stop this, who would, who would likely sue to prevent this from happening. And understanding that, um, that's what compelled me to get involved. I understood this had to be done exactly right.

[00:24:54] There was no room for error. This had to be done incredibly thoughtful, uh, thoughtfully, methodically, strategically, tactically. And, um, and I decided that would be the opportunity for me to. Of course, 

[00:25:07] Andrew: we know now that you did set a precedent in this matter, but was that the goal from the beginning? How did you understand the objectives from the get 

[00:25:18] George: go?

[00:25:20] You know, I do think that early on we had two You know, two guiding lights, uh, from the very beginning. The first was successful execution. This property had to be returned to the heirs of Charles and Willa Bruce. Successful execution. Failure was, was not an option. Almost getting it was not an option. That was our first guiding principle.

[00:25:48] And the second guiding principle was Figuring out how to do this in a way that could be replicated if other cities and counties and states and governments were inclined to do so doing this in a way that created a plan and a roadmap for folks to follow. An example I'll give is one of the first things I did when I got hired was I went out and hired a genealogist to Create a family tree.

[00:26:18] Why did I do that? I wanted to make sure that the folks that our firm was representing were in fact the legal heirs of Charles and Willow Bruce. And I also wanted to understand if there were other legal heirs who should be brought into the process and to be included. The last thing we wanted to do was, you know, spend 18, 24, 36 months working on this process.

[00:26:38] only to find that there were another set of, you know, of rightful descendants. So, and so a number of the things that we did in this process were really with an eye towards creating a plan and a roadmap that could be followed by others. 

[00:26:53] Murray: You made a point, uh, that the Bruce's bought their Manhattan Beach property, which is nobody's been in Manhattan Beach.

[00:26:59] That is a beautiful part of the country and they started that business at the same time as the Hilton Empire was spinning up. Can you talk a little bit about the ripple effect that you think through or maybe lack of ripple effect? Um, that the taking of the Bruce's land hat and I, and I mean, and that's, we know that this is, you know, but one, unfortunately, but one example of this ripple effect 

[00:27:25] or lack of ripple.

[00:27:27] George: Yeah, you know that the parallel or the analogy with. With Conrad Hilton senior, you know, really came to me and, and is really important, um, as we think about the concept of justice and, and let me, let me give a little background for, for some of the listeners. So one of the things I discovered when I was doing my research in this case is I discovered, you know, the, the Bruce's originally came from the DC area and they, they moved West across the country as part of the first wave of the great migration with African Americans.

[00:27:57] Leaving the south to come north and west. I learned in my research that they had stopped briefly and lived in in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And in fact, I think their first son was, was actually born in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Now, don't ask me why or how, but for some reason, I also. You know, remembered or recalled or had learned that Conrad Hilton senior, um, who was the founder of Hilton Hotel, uh, Corporation had also spent time in, in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

[00:28:25] And so I started just doing some research and understanding about his life and how he got started. And I was fascinated to learn that he started his business, the Hilton business, about the same time as, as, as Willa Bruce started Bruce's Beach, um, and in fact started, you know, similar to the Bruce's very modestly, you know, his father owned a general store and he asked his dad if he could, uh, you know, put some cots in the storeroom so when folks were coming through town, he could run him a cot to stay the night, you know, fast forward, fast forward.

[00:28:55] The Hilton Company is, is worth about $40 billion today. Uh, several of the descendants of Conrad Hilton Senior appear on the Forbes or the Fortune, you know, 400 list of richest Americans. There's a Hilton Foundation. There's numerous endowed Hilton uh, professorships at universities. There's a business school that's housed in the Hilton, uh, building.

[00:29:20] And so. Contrast that to what happened to the Bruce family again started at the same time kind of off to the same start, you know, I think I could make the argument that the Bruce's were off to maybe a stronger start, but contrast that where the government stepped in and and condemn the Bruce's property destroyed the building where they had to flee the city of Manhattan Beach where they where they died and in poverty and.

[00:29:47] The reason that I talk about this, it goes back to, to this question of justice. And after the Bruce's got the property back, I would hear people say a lot. And I think I was tempted to say like, you know, justice was served or where people would ask, how does it feel to get justice for the Bruce's? And I struggled with that because, you know, the Bruce's got The property back, but what they didn't get back was, was the hundred years and what could have been built.

[00:30:15] And it's not just about the bruises right what I think about is thinking about the men and women that that the bruises would have been Employed as employees at their at their resort. I think about the African American families that would have gone and vacation there that and the Children in those families who could have looked up and seeing these examples.

[00:30:35] These role models, these black entrepreneurs, I think about the wealth that the Bruce's could have accumulated for themselves and what they could have done with that. Well, I think about the elected officials who's Political careers they could have endorsed and supported. I think about the philanthropic causes that they could have endorsed and supported.

[00:30:56] And what you realize is that the return of the property is important. But I think it's a far away from justice. And, and, and I, and what you realize is it's impossible to measure the magnitude. Of not just what the Bruce's loss, but really what the black community has lost. And like you said, this was just one example.

[00:31:20] So you take this example and you multiply it times the thousands and probably tens of thousands of examples of black land loss and black land theft across the country. And, and I think talking about. Kind of, uh, you know, the trajectory of the Hilton business is, is a useful way to, to really start to get a sense of how immeasurable the magnitude of the losses.

[00:31:42] Andrew: It really was a powerful comparison. I want to talk a little bit about the communications challenge in this. You had so many different audiences. You had to speak with, uh, not just your clients, but various levels of government. You had to talk to judges, the media, the various communities. How did you approach that challenge?

[00:32:08] How did you sort of think about that? The various audiences that you needed to speak to 

[00:32:15] George: well, so first i'll say andrew you know I took a lot of advice from professionals like yourself in terms of Of how to communicate and when to communicate and why to communicate and look that's the one thing I really need to make clear and I should have mentioned this When we talked about the work with the ebony and jet magazine and it's certainly true in this case These are all matters that involve legal teams.

[00:32:39] This was not the George Fothery show. This was not a one person effort. It was supported by, you know, my law firm and we had a number of talented and committed attorneys from the senior partner level to the junior associate and paralegal levels who all came together to work on these matters. In terms of communication, you're exactly right.

[00:33:02] One of the things that made the Bruce's Beach Matter so complex were the different audiences. And I'll start just with the clients, because there were different, you know, we, we had our clients who were the, you know, the heirs of, of the Bruce's, but the family members were at different points in their lives.

[00:33:21] They had different priorities. They had different fears and concerns. And so even within the client, I think there were different communication. Concerns and strategies. Of course, we had to communicate with the county who was who we were working with to secure the return of the property. We had to communicate with the California State Legislature in working to to pass legislation that would enable the return.

[00:33:45] We had our legal team. And communication with the legal team and also within the broader firm. And then we have the public and a sub segment of the public, which is the African American community. And so it really was a, I think a diverse and complex that, uh, stakeholders who we needed to get our message to and.

[00:34:07] One of the governing principles of legal work and of being a lawyer, uh, an attorney is attorney client privilege, right? It's, it's secrecy, it's confidentiality. And so I think it's, it's a point that a lot of lawyers don't get sufficient, uh, training and experience around. And so I'll say what, you know, what, what really guided the team and guided me was having access to, to other professionals like yourself, Andrew, to help us.

[00:34:35] I think very strategically and thoughtfully, not just about what the message is, but really about the timing of the message and the tone of the message. And what I'll say is the, the through line through all of that kind of really the core governing principle around our communication was, was really one of, of honesty and transparency.

[00:34:57] We were, you know, we were confident that we were on the right and just side of this issue. And we wanted to be very transparent with all the audiences about what we were doing and how we were thinking about it. 

[00:35:13] Andrew: When the court rejected a challenge to the transfer of the property, the judge went so far as to say the transfer actually strengthened the legitimacy of our democracy.

[00:35:25] What did you make of that statement? So, 

[00:35:28] George: so that was actually one of our legal arguments. And so we were very, we were very pleased and not to, not to take any credit for the judge who, who had a very kind of thoughtful and, and analytically rigorous, you know, discourse around the issues in the case. But, um, but that was actually one of our legal strategies.

[00:35:45] So the lawsuit that was filed against the county to prevent the county from transferring the property to our clients alleged that the government, the state of California, acting through the county of Los Angeles, could not take property that the government owned and transfer it to a private individual, the lawsuit alleged that If the county were to do that, it would, it would, um, it would basically be a, uh, a private gift, and there's a constitutional prohibition in California's constitution against the government making private gifts.

[00:36:23] Now, this was an argument that we had anticipated that someone would raise, and so we were very thoughtful and very strategic in understanding How that law, how that prohibition against private gift making worked, and we were very focused on understanding what the exceptions to that were. And so early on in the case, you know, we learned about California's constitutional prohibition on, on private gift making.

[00:36:51] But we also learned that if something is considered as furthering the public good, if it's in furtherance of the public good, if it's advancing the public good, then it's not going to be considered a private gift. So that led our team to really focus on and articulate and help, uh, the California State Legislature, help Los Angeles County, and eventually help the court understand and articulate the public purpose behind the county's returning attorney.

[00:37:20] This property and what the judge held in, in his, in his, uh, in his order was that when the government recognizes that it's acted in a way that betrays our core and fundamental principles of American democracy principles like justice, equality, fairness, if the government has acknowledged it. That it's violated those principles as was acknowledged in this case, right?

[00:37:50] In the 1923 taking of the Bruce's property and business by the city of Manhattan beach, where that's acknowledged, but then you don't do anything about it, people become cynical. People become pessimistic. We, we lose our faith in our democratic institutions, but the reverse is also true, where the government has acknowledged that it's acted in a way that violates our core government principles, and then engages in acts of restitution, engages in acts of, of, of reparation, some may say, that actually enhances and strengthens The legitimacy of our democracy, it, it strengthens our governmental institutions.

[00:38:34] And that really is the public good that was achieved when the county returned the property to the Bruce's. 

[00:38:42] Andrew: The Atlantic magazine recently published a series of essays about reconstruction. And one historian wrote about Ida B. Wells activism against lynching at the time. And here's, here's what he wrote.

[00:38:54] I want to read this quote to you. Welles efforts in a period of racial fatigue among white audiences helped continue the central political struggle of Reconstruction. Welles told America's story it needed but did not want to hear. And so you obviously had a story to tell and I'm just wondering did you ever feel like you were delivering a story the public did not want 

[00:39:20] to hear?

[00:39:22] George: Andrew, this is such, this is such an important point to make and the point That we're making is a point about the power of stories and about the power of of narratives and and I'm going to answer your question maybe a little differently. What I want to talk about is this idea of false narratives and counter narratives.

[00:39:46] Andrew: And one of the issues we have in this country still today is that a lot of folks. accept a false narrative around the question of race relations and really around the question of why things are the way they are today with respect to the African American community, why we have a racial wealth gap, why we have a racial home ownership gap, why there are more, you know, African American men in the prison system and criminal justice system than in the You know, higher education system.

[00:40:21] There's a false narrative around that and and the false narrative is grounded in anti black white supremacist thought. And that narrative says the reason those things are the way they are is a result of individual choice. And preference and behavior and a lack of, of strong community, a lack of values and, and what's powerful about the Bruce's Beach story is if you digest it and you understand it, you actually see the counter narrative, which I think is, is, is the proper narrative and, and let me, and let me share this like a lot of folks don't know, but when the city of Manhattan Beach condemn the Bruce's property using it.

[00:41:07] The city did not just take the property that was owned by the Bruce's, the Bruce's had owned property that was really on the, on the, on the beach front. It was on the sand and they had built a two story building there. There were five other African American families that had moved into the city of Manhattan Beach bought property and built their homes on that property as of 1923.

[00:41:30] And these families and homes were, were a couple blocks back from where Bruce's Beach was. When the city took the Bruce's property in that racially motivated eminent domain action. They didn't just take the Bruce property. They actually drew a box that was big enough to go way up the hill and passed all this property that was held by, you know, by white residents.

[00:41:52] And and then they drew the boundaries so that they took every parcel of land that was owned by a black family in that time in the city of Manhattan Beach, they took all of that property they took all of those homes now fast forward 100 years. The African American population in the city of Manhattan Beach is 0. 5%. It's, it's, it's probably the lowest of any city in Los Angeles County, and you could look at that. And if you didn't know the history, if you didn't understand what had happened. You could draw some conclusions. You could say something like, well, look, you know, Manhattan Beach is a very expensive community to live in and African Americans can't afford to live there.

[00:42:36] So it's, we're not surprised that we don't see higher populations. You could, you know, you could, um, you could come up with all types of ways to understand that. The reality is we can draw a straight line between the unjust actions of the city of Manhattan Beach in 1923 and present day. Population and composition of the city of Manhattan Beach today, but we won't draw that connection if we don't understand the story if we don't understand the narrative, and my feeling is that there are a lot of areas today in our society in our communities.

[00:43:11] Where we don't sufficiently understand and realize how it is we got from A to B. We don't understand the impact that racial redlining had on preventing African Americans from being able to buy homes in certain communities. We don't understand the impact that racially restrictive covenants had in preventing black people from being able to live in certain neighborhoods.

[00:43:35] And so the story of Bruce's Beach Is so critical because it helps us really correct a false narrative. And I think that's, uh, that's so critical for us to do if we're ever going to move forward as a country on this, on this issue of race, which tends to divide us so frequently,

[00:43:53] Murray: you know, you, you are. We've talked already about how this has, this, this whole matter has created some precedent, has created some, some, a model for, for reparations, uh, you know, as, and that people can look at and, and you, you all dutifully, you know, documented and made sure that it was, it was pulled together in a way that was valuable to, to the public at large, setting precedent, you Is kind of a white knuckle experience for teams, right?

[00:44:25] And, and cause, you know, that's, we're lawyers, you know, I'm a lawyer, you're a lawyer. We are, law is always looking backwards, we're always looking over our shoulder, right? And so it's, you know, we're almost taught not to make precedent. Or talk to follow precedent, not to write, okay, 

[00:44:44] George: do it the way they did it last time.

[00:44:46] Murray: That's right. That's right. If it worked 50 times in a row in the last 50 years, it's going to work for the next 50, right? So, but you, you said precedent and you have a team, you, you generous in your discussion of, of your team's capabilities and qualities, kind of, how did you keep your team and the clients together in, in, but I imagine at times were some pretty.

[00:45:09] daunting circumstances because when you're setting precedent, you can't tell them, you can't give anybody even a sense of what the outcomes. 

[00:45:18] George: So you really, you know, you really hit the nail, uh, the nail on the head there. This was a long process, right? This, this took about three years, and I just want you and I want the listeners to put yourself in the client's shoes.

[00:45:33] This has been a part of their history for as long as they can remember, but it was, um, it was a bad part of their family history. This was something that was done to them by the government. This was something unjust. This was not something you talked about. At family reunions and at holidays. This was an ugly chapter in this family's history.

[00:45:57] And now a hundred years later, someone floats the possibility. That this property could be returned, which, you know, which, which, as you would understand it from a client's perspective, would create opportunities for you that you never may have thought possible. The patience that it takes to endure the uncertainty as to whether or not that will happen, and when will it happen, you know, I think is really, I think is really challenging.

[00:46:27] And what I'll say is I've got tremendous respect and admiration for my clients in this matter, and I am, have so much gratitude and appreciation for their trust in our team and their trust and belief in me, because I'll tell you, there were several shortcuts that they could have taken. And there were a couple of times in the process where it would have been easy for them and I think easy for a lot of folks to say, this is going on too long.

[00:47:03] It's taking too long. There's too much uncertainty. Let's, uh, you know, let's do something different. Let's take a shortcut. Let's settle maybe for less. And. What I, uh, again, what I'm, I'm just overwhelmed with gratitude for the client's faith and trust in our team and faith and trust in me for the privilege of, of leading, uh, this matter and guiding them and them, you know, carefully considering our advice and counsel, because I think when you, when you put yourselves in their shoes and you look at, you know, some of the shortcuts or, or, you know, easier options they could have taken, you could easily understand how they might, uh, You know, opt for for an easy way out as opposed to seeing this through and and really having it result in the important, uh, you know, trailblazing and groundbreaking precedent that it's become, 

[00:47:55] Andrew: you know, tragically, there is so many other stories.

[00:47:58] Like the bruises. So why did this story resonate? 

[00:48:03] George: Yes. A great question. And I think it's two things. Um, the first is, is the story. It goes back to how this was a very compelling story. This was, uh, an important narrative. It's a story about, about black excellence. It's a story about, you know, black entrepreneurship and cooperative economics and the strength and the resilience of the black community.

[00:48:25] Andrew: It's a story about a successful African American woman entrepreneur, Willard Bruce, who had a vision and was tenacious and hardworking and sophisticated and strategic and built this business. It's a story about endurance, right? The, the Bruce's they faced and their patrons, they faced intimidation, harassment, violence, and they persisted.

[00:48:46] And so I think one is that their story is a compelling story. What I'll say is their story is not unique, um, and it's not individual. I mean, the details are, but this is a story that's been a story of, of black land loss, the black land theft of, of the government stepping in to prevent African Americans from owning property, building wealth, transferring that wealth on an intergenerational basis.

[00:49:13] That's not a unique story. So that's the first piece. I think the story is compelling. I think the narrative is important and compelling, albeit not unique. So, the second piece had to do with timing. And again, we mentioned earlier that on May 25th, 2020, that's the day we all watched George Floyd be murdered.

[00:49:35] And it was really the timing and what was going on in our country at that time when we're, we're struggling with this, with this reckoning and this reconciliation. Around the plight and the treatment of African Americans and in all aspects of American society, and so I think it was the combination of those two things coming together, which created an opportunity for our team to take advantage of, which again goes to the point.

[00:50:04] You know, you're not, you never know, you can't control when the opportunity is going to present itself. What you can control is when it does present itself, you're prepared. And we were prepared in this case. 

[00:50:14] Murray: I saw this really interesting article in the New York Times last year, and it was reported that there was some, I'll put the air quotes in here, disappointment that the heirs decided to sell the property for 20 million.

[00:50:28] Not a bad payday. Rather. Then developing it in such a way as to fulfill the original vision of the Bruce's Bruce's, the Bruce family and, and, and Willa, um, what's your thoughts, not on the decision about the heirs to sell the property. Cause it's property it's can be sold, but rather the idea that the land needed to be used in a specific way.

[00:50:52] I find it just, it was a kind of a puzzling to me. It was puzzling. And I, I thought, well, I get to talk to the dude who actually knows what he's talking about here. I want to hear what he has to say. 

[00:51:02] George: Well, so look, so let me start by saying like, um, I remember the feeling I was there obviously the day that the county presented the Bruce family with the deed to this property.

[00:51:14] You know, it was a beautiful July, you know, late morning, it was sunny. The Pacific Ocean was, you know, rolling waves behind the stage. I remember exactly how I felt in that moment. And I remember the sense of, of joy and pride and And, and even though it's, it's not a word that I, I associate, uh, with this because of reasons that we've discussed, like, like justice, I'll say, I remember how, how I felt and it wasn't, those feelings weren't as the Bruce's lawyer.

[00:51:50] Those were feelings as an African American. And so I get the feeling that folks across the country, black folks across the country had. I understand. I think I understand how, how. Folks felt when they heard that that property for the first time in our country's history had been returned to an African American family.

[00:52:10] Um, I felt like I had property returned to me and I understand that other people felt like they had that, that something positive was done to them. So, so I don't want to, I don't want to take for granted the, that the emotional connection and the feelings of communal. Uh victory that folks have so I get that I want to acknowledge that and I want to I think that's important And I respect that Um, you know that said there are a lot of of details we talked about communication and getting the story out Look, there's a lot of details and things that that we couldn't that we couldn't talk about and i'll just you know But but i'll just mention that One of the folks one of the things a lot of folks don't realize is that bruce has got this property back But this property was not Legally entitled to be developed, you really couldn't do anything productive with it without giving without receiving some approvals from the government, and you needed to approval specifically one you needed to California Coastal Commission to approve the development they control the coastline that body tends to be tends to want to preserve beach land for the benefit of all Californians which which we understand and appreciate.

[00:53:25] I suspect that given the circumstances here, you know, we may have been able to make a compelling case to them. The second approval you would need is from the City of Manhattan Beach. Now, the County of Los Angeles owned the property, but the property sits in the City of Manhattan Beach. The City of Manhattan Beach controls the entitlement, controls the land use.

[00:53:46] And at the time the property was cons, uh, was returned to the Bruce's, this is the same city that, um, a hundred years ago took the property. And up until that point had never apologized to the Bruce's for taking it. And so from the perspective of, of the clients, you've got a situation where you receive this property back.

[00:54:09] It's really not of, of great value to you because you can't develop it and you have no idea how long it would take or if you could ever get it to be in a situation where you can develop it. Add on top of that the possibility, as unlikely and remote as we think it would be, but add on top of that the possibility that the government always has the power of eminent domain.

[00:54:41] That's a government superpower. The government can't negotiate that power away. They can't waive it. They can't agree not to exercise it. You have a new election and you get a new board of supervisors, a new city council, and the government always has that power of eminent domain. Now, I think it's easy for you and I sitting here to say there's no way they would lose that property again, uh, to eminent domain.

[00:55:05] But again, you situate yourself as a member of a, of a family who's grown up hearing this story. Of what happened to their ancestors. And so I say all this, not to, you know, analyze the decision, but I want to make sure that folks who are listening understand that, um, the property. was important. It was important that the property be returned.

[00:55:29] But what's really important is not the property, it's what the property represents, what the property represents. And what the property represents is the opportunity to build wealth, to create intergenerational wealth. You had four family members, they're each at different points in their life and career and family.

[00:55:49] And so by selling the property, and by the way, the price that The family sold the property for was the high, it was the price, the appraisal price, assuming the highest and best use of the property. So in other words, the price that they sell the property for was a price that assumed. That the property was entitled to be completely developed.

[00:56:13] And so without the development risk, right? So if you were going to sell that property to a real estate developer, the developer would say, yeah, the property's worth 20 million, but it could take four years to get the entitlement. We've got a carrying costs. And so we'll pay you. 80 percent of 20 million, right?

[00:56:31] We're going to take some risk, some risk discount. So it was a very good financial decision for the family. And what it's done is it's enabled each of them to go and take the proceeds of the sale and invest it in a way that will hopefully generate intergenerational wealth for them and their family. 

[00:56:49] Murray: We know that you recently left big law.

[00:56:53] You made the leap. What are you trying to accomplish? 

[00:56:56] George: Yeah, look, if I want to be crystal clear. Big Law was very good to me professionally. I think about the skills and the experience and the training that I've received over 16 years working at these firms. I think about the networks I've developed. I think about the connections I made.

[00:57:18] Think about the relationships I developed and the associates I was able to work with and train and mentor. And I've got. Zero regrets about the important investment that I made in my professional career, pursuing a very fulfilling, uh, career in big law and will be eternally and forever grateful for all that I was able to get out of it.

[00:57:42] At the same time, I'm reminded of a, of a, of a, a saying, I think it was, was the Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh. And I apologize by misattributing that, but I'm reminded of a saying that says, You use a canoe to cross the river, but when you cross the river, you don't carry the canoe on your back. You know, you continue your journey.

[00:58:03] And so I think for me, You know, my career in the law had served a very important, uh, kind of purpose in terms of, uh, my training and the impact I was, I was able to have. And it also, uh, inspired me to take the next step. So, so I'll just, I'll tell you what I'm doing now. You know, one of the things that happened after our involvement in the Bruce's Beach case became public is I started getting emails and voicemails every day.

[00:58:28] I still get them. African American families across the country with similar stories of land loss. Um, you know, they'd call attorney father. We we had 40 acres of oil land in Louisiana. And when my great grandfather died, they forged his name on the deed and we lost everything. Can you help us attorney father?

[00:58:49] We had 100 acres of farmland in South Texas, and the sheriff came with guns and dogs and said, if we didn't leave town, there'd be trouble. We lost everything. Can you help us? I've literally gotten over 360 of these voice messages and emails, and as I've looked into these cases and done research, it's devastating, but you realize that our current legal system does not really provide any remedy.

[00:59:18] for this land loss. And so, as I was struggling with this, I started thinking a lot about our wealth inequities and the wealth gap, and in particular, the racial wealth gap. I started thinking about how we generate wealth in this country, which is, you know, largely through property ownership, through home ownership, which, which certain segments of our population have been denied the right to do for decades and decades and generations.

[00:59:42] And so I decided I wanted to, to use my skills, um, outside of the law to try to do something that impacts our country's wealth gap. Our country's home ownership gap and, and, and ideally, and hopefully the racial wealth gap. And so, uh, I've launched a social impact FinTech venture. It's called Oro impact.

[01:00:02] Oro means wealth in the Yoruba language. And Oro, I think means gold or wealth in just about every language. It's gold in Spanish and what Oro impact does. Is we make it very, very easy for companies to make loans to their employees that the employees can use to make a down payment on a home. Um, just understanding that, that home ownership is such a significant.

[01:00:29] Lever in terms of wealth creation. If you own a home, you can, you can, you know, bar against your home equity to invest in the start of business. You can borrow money to send a kid to school. You can cover expenses. If somebody gets sick, right. The just home ownership, it plays such an imperative role in, in our society around, uh, you know, living a full life and around generating wealth and around passing wealth to the next generation, and we've got millions of Americans who right now.

[01:00:59] Have a monthly housing cost that would enable them to own a home. What they are missing is a rich uncle. I, I almost, I almost named the company rich uncle. com, but what they don't have is they don't have a wealthy family member who can advance them. a significant amount to make a down payment so that their monthly mortgage is affordable and looks a lot like what they're paying in rent.

[01:01:28] And so the vision of Oro Impact is to partner with employers, to partner with companies, The companies get a very, very high impact retention tool, right? Because the idea is the company will, uh, you know, we'll make a 50, 000 loan to an employee and say, look, so long as you remain employed here, we're going to forgive this over the next five years, or, or maybe it's repayable.

[01:01:53] But they say, look, as long as you remain employed here, you don't have to make monthly payments. You can start making payments. In year five, when you've got some equity built up, when you're making a little more money, or if you get a bonus, you can repay the loan out of your bonus each year. But for the employer, it's a super high impact retention tool, right?

[01:02:13] This is going to dramatically reduce retention costs. It's going to increase employee loyalty. And for the employees, right, this is really an amazing opportunity. To enable someone who would not otherwise have the financial wherewithal to make a down payment on a home and start to build home equity and wealth.

[01:02:32] So that's what I'm doing. And I'm, as you can tell, I'm absolutely on fire about it. Our mission is, uh, is ambitious, and it's to narrow. The wealth gap and really the vision of the company is that in the next five, six, seven years, employer sponsored down payment assistance is as common as, you know, student loan repayment assistance or fertility benefit assistance or health insurance.

[01:02:55] So that's what I'm doing. 

[01:02:56] Andrew: So for listeners out there who want to know more about your venture or get involved. Where do they go? 

[01:03:02] George: Yeah. Uh, absolutely. Thanks for that. They can check out our website. That's www. oroimpact. com. O R O impact. com. I've also got a, a website up. I'm at georgefathery. com. I'm, you know, I'm talking about some of the, the different speaking opportunities I, I get.

[01:03:19] I get to tell the Bruce's Beach Story. I've been talking about the Ebony and Jet Photography Archive. I've got a, another project I'm working on. That's a black, uh, Land loss narrative archive project and you can find all of that and more at georgefathery. com 

[01:03:35] Andrew: And you know for other lawyers listening out there, what do you want them?

[01:03:39] To take away from your personal story 

[01:03:41] George: So so, you know, look my my hope from my story is not you know that everybody goes on to to take on pro bono cases that You know lead to reparations or that that people decide to leave big law to go start social impact ventures The message that I'm hoping to get across is for, and this is especially for, for younger lawyers, for associates of law firms, for associates in big law, the message I want to get across is, is to get your money's worth.

[01:04:11] Working at a law firm, you have access to immense set of training and professional development opportunities. And you are uniquely situated to invest in yourself and build skills. And, you know, I, you know, I remember it was almost, almost every year on the anniversary of my kind of joining the firm, I remember I would, I would take the opportunity to look back and I would be so excited about how much more I could do this year than I could just a year before.

[01:04:46] Murray: Yeah. 

[01:04:47] George: And so. My hope and my message for, you know, for attorneys and especially for the associates is, um, you know, is to get your money's worth. And while you're at the firm, say yes to projects, right? Learn new things. Perfect your skills. Work with people who have different styles. Work with people who have different strengths.

[01:05:05] Because again, it goes back to this theme that's, that's come up, you know, multiple times in this interview. And that is, you cannot control. When an opportunity is going to present itself. The only thing you can control is will you be ready? Will you be prepared when it does and working at a law firm? You just have a really unique and special opportunity to invest in yourself to make sure you are prepared.

[01:05:28] Andrew: All right Well, that's very sage advice. We'll leave it there George. Thank you so much We're very grateful for your time and for your stories really appreciate it. 

[01:05:36] George: Absolutely. 

[01:05:37] Murray: Thank you. Thank you George It was a pleasure 

[01:05:40] George: Guys, it was absolutely my pleasure. I appreciate you guys reaching out and, um, I hope to talk to you again very soon.

[01:05:49] Murray: That was something. Just the way that narrative was told there and the resetting of, hopefully, the resetting of the history. But I want to, you know, I want to thank our guest. And I want to thank you for all that you did and Infinite Global did to make sure that this story was told at the time. Bravo all the way around and hope this serves to inspire some folks, uh, especially on the transactional side to figure out some creative pro bono opportunity.

[01:06:23] Andrew: Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you, Murray. And yeah, thank you to George. Uh, we, uh, are inspired by your work and inspired by, uh, the, the change that you affected in this, in this matter. So until the next time.

[01:06:53] ​